This week in the Glass Candle Dialogue, Luka and I eulogize the Tyrell
family. We discuss the Machiavellian machinations on which House Tyrell
was founded, chat about LGBT representation, and try to find some
catharsis in the tragic end this family faced.
Petra: For me, and I think for a lot of people,
House Tyrell was the family I wanted to be a member of the most. The
Starks were probably the most realistic family unit but the Tyrells were
the most appealing. So it was really unfortunate that they got blown
up.
Luka: They seemed to get along with each other
better than a lot of the Westerosi families but I wouldn’t say their
dynamics were completely healthy. Olenna was very manipulative and
controlling. It’s understandable, of course. As a woman, “soft power”
was the only kind of authority she could really wield but that doesn’t
change the fact that she practiced the same kind of political
machinations on her family as Tywin did.
Petra: They were a very ambitious family, to be
sure. Their sole motivation the entire time seemed to be just to rise as
far as they could. They never had any particular goal to achieve with
their newfound power or internal conflict to put to rest, right?
Luka: Yeah. Determination to climb the social ladder
seems to have been an inherited ambition. The Tyrells started out as
the stewards of the Gardeners and, when Aegon the Conqueror showed up,
they took advantage of the situation and ended up on top. Three
centuries later, the family was still doing more or less the same thing.
Petra: Maybe it’s fitting that their sigil is a
plant. A vertical rise has been their sole motivation for their entire
history. “We Grow Strong: It’s All We Know How To Do.”
Petra: Olenna is kind of like the sassy grandma we wish we had.
Luka: Except for the murder and the assassinations.
Petra: Hey, as long as it worked to my benefit and I
didn’t get framed I wouldn’t necessarily refuse her help. Anyway, as
much as she fits the archetype of the loving, sharp-tongued grandma,
your comment does make me wonder how different her demeanor towards
Margaery would have been if she hadn’t shared that ambition.
Luka: Don’t get me wrong, I very much enjoyed her
character. They seemed more modern, for good and ill. The Tyrells
generally displayed a more Renaissance-era mindset than the other
Westerosi families, particularly in the sense that they excelled in
discreet political machinations and poisonings rather than outright
military action.
Petra: Well, the first book and the TV show are both
titled “Game of Thrones,” in reference to Cersei’s phrase for
high-stakes political intrigue held at court. The Tyrells were far from
unique in that sense, though they were better at it than, say, the
Starks. But I agree that they’re Renaissance-era in terms of aesthetic
appreciation. They prized beauty, fashion and architecture on a level
beyond the other Westerosi families. They were also far more socially
progressive and inclusive than most others.
Luka: Along with the Martells.
Petra: Oh, true, we talked about that just last
week! Okay, so the Tyrells and the Martells were the most progressive,
particularly in terms of sexuality. It’s implied in
The World of Ice and Fire
that Aegon the Unlikely’s son, Daeron, was gay. He never married,
“preferring the companionship of Ser Jeremy Norridge, a young knight
whom he had befriended when they were squires at Highgarden.” I think
it’s funny that the shorthand for LGBT in ASOIAF could be Highgarden.
Like “friends of Dorothy” is “friends from Highgarden” in Westeros. But I
do appreciate how inclusive the Tyrells were. I love that scene between
Margaery and Renly where Margaery takes him totally off guard with her
honesty. “Hey, I’m your queen and you need to put a baby in me. We can
get my brother involved if that’ll help you. Whatever you need. I’m
flexible.”
Luka: And Renly was so repressed he was absolutely
shocked that she was talking about it so freely. His brain
short-circuited. It’s worth noting, though, that we’re talking about the
sexuality of these characters in very modern terms. We have
classifications and vocabulary for sexual orientations that people in
our world didn’t have until very recently. I’m wondering whether
Westerosi society has our modern classifications for sexual orientation,
even if their values prohibit anything non-heteronormative, or if their
view of sexuality is more nebulous as it was for the bulk of human
history.
Petra: Good question! Yara and Oberyn’s openness
suggests that Westeros has a better handle on same-sex attraction than
historical medieval Western Europe did, but then the characters never
discuss sexual orientation explicitly. It all seems to fall under
Jaime’s observation to Brienne: “We don’t choose who we love.” That
said, I think there’s a significant difference in the way sexuality is
presented in the books and the show. To me,
Game of Thrones
takes a more progressive stance than ASOIAF. I get the criticisms
against Loras’ characterization in the show, in that he’s “the gay
character,” but in ASOIAF, with the exception of women having their
servants go down on them, we don’t have any overt same-sex relations.
The nature of Loras’ bond with Renly is left in between the lines. When
Renly dies Loras says, “When the sun has set, no candle can replace it.”
At least, in the show it’s clear that they were in a relationship.
Luka: Martin veers too far into the logic of “In
Westeros, which is inspired by medieval Western Europe, they would keep
it secret.” Yes, of course they would, but … come on, that’s no excuse
not to feature a non-hetero POV when you have so many characters, or at
least someone who is close to one and
thinks about it
explicitly. (Well, except for Jon Connington, but again that’s implied
and we never get the kind of detail about his orientation and
experiences we would get if he was a heterosexual man.) In the show we
actually got to see Renly and Loras together. We saw the dynamics of
their relationship.
Petra: I think the show has been doing a pretty good
job at addressing “modern” (the quotation marks can’t be stressed
enough) issues in a “medieval” context insofar as characters love who
they love despite heternormative cultural values and it isn’t really
framed as an issue until the High Sparrow takes power. Loras never
seemed to have any internal conflict about his love for Renly prior to
his incarceration. Poor, poor Loras.
Luka: I never really got the love for Loras, to be
honest. I know you like him. I don’t dislike him; I just don’t find him
interesting. He’s more compelling in the books, certainly, just because
there’s more of him. Or there’s more
to him, at least.
Petra: He’s certainly more of a character in the
books. He’s an arrogant young man that Jaime sees as a younger version
of himself, which is really cool and I’m sad that they didn’t
incorporate that into the show. I do agree that in the show he was
treated as a “gay character” whereas in the books he was a character who
happened to be gay.
Luka: The show emphasized his sexuality above all
else, that is true, but to say that in the books he’s “a character who
happens to be gay” is a bit of a stretch. He’s a character who, if you
really read into it, is involved with a man, but his sexual orientation
or his romantic relationships aren’t parts of his character that’re
ever explored.
Petra: That’s true. I wouldn’t qualify Loras in the
books as LGBT representation since it’s all hidden in subtext.
Basically, the themes explored through Loras are fundamentally different
in the books and the show. ASOIAF explores arrogance, entitlement and
Jaime’s development through Loras whereas
Game of Thrones addresses sexuality and homophobia through him. There’s not much crossover.
Luka: I think Finn Jones did a good job with what he
was given. He was a secondary or tertiary character, so of course he
wasn’t really afforded an arc, in either the books or the show. We sort
of saw the beginning of an arc when he was in prison in season six but
all that potential was cut short by, you know …
Kaboom!
Petra: I think my affinity for Loras is comprised
solely of pity. It’s kind of like talking about Rickon. How do I feel
about him? I feel sad. Just sad.
Luka: Finn Jones even looks like a sad puppy
sometimes. In the books, I get the love insofar as media is starved of
LGBT characters and so fans have a tendency to mine for representation
in the fictional works that they love. That line you quoted, “When the
sun has set, no candle can replace it,” seems like everyone’s go-to line
when criticizing Loras’ characterization on the show in favor of
ASOIAF’s version.
Petra: I only remember that line because it’s been quoted in so many articles.
Luka: Yeah, me too.
Petra: I don’t consider Loras a standout example of
LGBT representation in either the books or the show. What really gets me
about Loras on
Game of Thrones is the sheer tragedy of his
story. Finn Jones said in interviews that if he could have played any
other character it would have been Theon. In the end, Loras did parallel
part of Theon’s arc insofar as he snapped in a dungeon but whereas
Theon’s had the chance to rebuild himself, Loras died at his lowest
point. I just find that so unbelievably sad.
Luka: And right after denouncing his identity, his
lover and forsaking all claim to his inheritance. It’s a bit like what
happened to Ned. He compromised himself and everything he stood for and
died immediately afterwards.
Petra: Something similar can be said about Margaery.
She didn’t compromise herself per se but she’d been conning the High
Sparrow all season, playing the long game, in order to protect herself
and her brother, but in the end it was all for naught.
Luka: Margaery was really interesting, particularly in the way she was translated from the books to the show. The Margaery we got on
Game of Thrones
seemed to be based on the perception of her in ASOIAF rather than her
actual characterization. We’ve never had a Margaery POV chapter, or even
a chapter from the perspective of someone who knows her well. Most of
the information we get about Margaery comes from Cersei’s perspective in
A Feast for Crows, and she’s not the most reliable narrator at
that point. She views Margaery as a schemer who uses sweetness as a
front but we have no way of knowing if that’s completely true or if
that’s mostly Cersei’s paranoia. We really don’t get much face-value
characterization of Margaery at all. So,
Game of Thrones
basically transplanted Cersei’s perception of Margaery onto the actual
character of Margaery and then developed her further into a
three-dimensional character.
Petra: That’s a good point. By the time I got to
Margaery’s introduction in the books I knew about her through osmosis
and Tumblr gifsets. So I was like, “Oh, great! Now I get to learn about
her personality and read all of her clever quips” and instead I just got
descriptions of how pretty she is and how sad that she’s a
thrice-widowed virgin. However, I really loved her character on the
show. She was another interesting example of someone exerting “soft
power.” I love the way she adapted to ingratiate herself with Joffrey
and Tommen. She showed a fascination for torture and crossbows with her
second husband then she was all into kittens with her third.
Luka: To be fair, I think dealing with Tommen was
easier for her. She wasn’t a chameleon to the degree that she didn’t
have values of her own. I certainly think it was easier for her to pet
kittens than it was to pretend to be interested in torturing people.
Petra: Fortunately we also got scenes between her
and Olenna in which she was able to be herself so we did get to know her
true nature. Again, as you said, on the show she got to be an actual
human being, not just a blank slate for Cersei to project on.
Luka: The first time I took notice of her was in
that classic scene in which Littlefinger asks her if she wants to be a
queen and she says, “No, I want to be
the queen.”
Petra: Yeah, it’s sort of interesting to me that
Margaery, and the Tyrells in general, are as endearing as they are,
considering they are made of pure ambition, and their story doesn’t
really deconstruct what it actually means to want power. Everyone else
who achieves a degree a power is like, “God, this sucks.” Robert
complained about how uncomfortable the Iron Throne is; Cersei told
Tommen how boring the council meetings are; Daenerys realized conquering
other civilizations is a complicated endeavor. It seems like the wisest
(maybe not the smartest, but the wisest) people in Westeros are the
ones who don’t crave power. Margaery seemed too wise to want to be on
top.
Luka: Eh… [Shrug] Not when you consider that Olenna was her mentor. Margaery didn’t want to be the
regnant
queen; that was unprecedented, until Cersei. But the role of queen
consort is another story. She could practice the sort of backroom
manipulations her grandmother taught her and, in the event of negative
repercussions, use her husband as a human shield.
Petra: That’s sounds like Margaery.
Petra: The advice Olenna gave Daenery was
interesting: that the love of the people didn’t help Margaery in the end
and that Daenerys should go ahead and “be a dragon.”
Luka: By the time she had that conversation with
Daenerys she wasn’t the same person we’d known in earlier seasons. She
didn’t care about the future. She was using Daenerys as a tool,
essentially as a literal flame thrower, against Cersei.
Petra: I do think she was trying to give Daenerys
good counsel, though. I agree that her motivations and worldview changed
after her family was killed but I don’t think she was so blinded by
grief that she was urging Daenerys to go on a suicide mission.
Luka: She definitely believed that she was giving
good advice, but it’s not the sort of counsel that she would have ever
given Margaery. I think my issue is that I disagree with her new
worldview. She doesn’t have a long-term, so she doesn’t care about it
anymore.
Petra: Ah, yes, I get that. Olenna’s end is really
tragic, that this old woman outlives the rest of her family, and then
dies in defeat.
Luka: At least she got to go in a poetic way. Part
of what made Margaery, Loras and Mace’s deaths so upsetting (in a good
way) was that their stories felt incomplete when they were cut short by
Cersei’s madness. We’ll always wonder what Margaery would have done
next, after the trial. By contrast, Olenna got to have a conversation
with her executioner and deliver one final blow against Cersei. We’ll
miss Olenna but we’re satisfied with how her story – and by extension
the Tyrell family’s story – concluded.
Luka: Oh shit, we forgot about Mace. Anything to say about him?
Petra: Uh… I’ve got nothing, sorry.
Luka: Okay. So…
NOT NOW, MACE!
